#I get the sense that the anon here really doesn't like Marinette

[theerurishipper]

https://www.tumblr.com/jacquesthepigeon/731353272698486784/you-know-it-must-be-said-as-someone-whos-only?source=share

Of course this is said from someone who has never seen the show. God forbid folks favorite character, is THE SECOND MAIN CHARACTER AND IN THE TITLE OF THE SHOW.

God forbid abuse survivors find Adrichat’s story relatable and react negatively to people who salt on him for, checks notes, being a rich white boy? Because being rich and white protects you from abuse lol okay

Someone go tell Kesha that the horrific abuse she endured for years doesn’t count because she’s rich and white.

Someone go tell Britney Spears and Amanda Bynes that they deserve their conservatorships because they’re too volitile and emotional and need someone else to control their entire lives. Also they’re rich and white so they should be thankful for their privilege.

Also as a fandom veteran, I’m also baffled that this anon says they’ve never seen fandom go this feral over a white boy so I guess the whole Superwholock thing doesn’t exist in this person’s universe. I’m getting war flashbacks…

I really hope this doesn't come off as rude, but I just have a small request for any anons in the future: if y'all want me to comment on someone else's post, please send it in a separate ask. I just don't want to post someone else's post and start an argument or something.

That being said, I do agree. My detailed thoughts under the cut.

"Adrien stans are white people who get unhinged over a white boy," say the Marinette stans and Marinette stan observers, not realizing that they espouse disgusting abuse apologism on a daily basis and victim blame a character who is a victim of abuse for being traumatized all because he made a few decisions that weren't about Marinette and her well-being alone.

This is ridiculous on so many levels. First the assumption that all Adrien stans are white people. Second, the assumption that we must be Adrien stans because he's a white boy and we don't care about POC characters as much as we do the white ones. Which is actually quite insulting to me.

Maybe these people should actually read what Adrien stans have to say. Maybe they should actually understand why we love Adrien so much. Maybe they should understand why we get so heated over him.

Know what? I'll tell you why. It's because Adrien is despite the writers' best efforts to undermine him an interesting and likeable character. He is a canonical abuse victim, and he struggles with his self-worth and his identity, which is a relatable story to many people. He's an entertaining and interesting character. He's the deuteragonist of the damn show. People are bound to love him. There's more to him than being a white boy and it's very insulting to imply that people obsess over him because he's white or because his fans are white.

And about how Adrien stans get "unhinged" about Adrien and not about other characters... we're literally Adrien stans. Which means Adrien is our favorite character. Naturally, we're going to talk more about him. This is basic common sense. I don't understand the problem here with liking Adrien more than other characters. Are we not allowed to have faves anymore?

And you know why Adrien stans get "unhinged" over him? Because the show treats him badly! Why shouldn't we get mad that a character whom we love is being treated poorly by the writers? Why can't we get heated about that? Marinette stans get heated about their fave being victimized by the narrative all the time, so why is it a crime if Adrien stans get upset if Adrien gets the same treatment? Adrien's story in the show ended with him being reduced to an object and a prop for his girlfriend so that she could side with his abuser and start controlling him instead. Why can't we get angry at that?

Marinette stans will talk about how both Adrien and Marinette are written badly but only Marinette gets criticized and how that's racist and shit, and will ignore the fact that our criticism has nothing to do with race and everything to do with Marinette siding with Gabriel to lie to an abuse victim, and how the show frames this as correct. We criticize Marinette because she's making an awful mistake and doing bad things! This is like, the worst strawman I have ever seen. At some point, it really feels like they are being willfully ignorant.

And about how Adrien stans treat other characters, riddle me this. Who has a proper tag dedicated to bashing them on AO3? Who was the character who was salted on so much when Syren aired? Who was the character being raked over the coals when Chameleon aired? Who was the character who was salted on in Season 4 for breaking a damn fucking chimney? Who was the character whose struggles in Season 4 were overlooked by Marinette stans who criticized him for "being entitled to Ladybug?" Who was the character who was relentlessly salted on whenever he did anything that didn't completely attend to Marinette's needs? Who is the character who was labelled a "sexual harasser?" Who is the character on whom these "fans" rain down their victim blaming and abuse apologia? Who is the character who has the longest history of being salted and bashed by the Marinette stans?

And I will laugh at the audacity of Marinette stans to argue in favor of POC characters and blame Adrien stans for "obsessing over a white boy while not giving the same treatment to characters of color" while their legacy includes salting Alya for not being Marinette's perfect emotional support BFF. Who has their own salt tag apart from Adrien on AO3? Alya does. It's laughable to me that Marinette stans harp on about how Adrien stans prefer the white boy over the POC characters when they spent the better part of the last few years bashing Alya and even devolved into outright racism against her. To say nothing of how they treated Kagami after Frozer dropped.

And these people accuse Adrien stans of showing preferential treatment to white characters? Marinette stans have no leg to stand on when it comes to calling out other people's treatment of POC characters. And I'm not saying that the anon or OP of the post are racist or that they personally contributed to this. But if they are going to make sweeping statements about Adrien stans accusing all of us of going unhinged over a white boy and treating POC characters unfairly, they should maybe take a look inwards at their own community.

Marinette stans have spent years bashing every other character for the smallest perceived slight. Marinette stans created a whole new genre of Miraculous fanfiction dedicated to propping up Marinette like their personal goddess and punishing other characters for not being her devoted slaves. Marinette stans have contributed greatly to the racism in this fandom. Look at all this and tell me: who really seems unhinged here?

So yeah. Ice cold take imo. Also, obligatory disclaimer: Not all Marinette stans are like this! Most of them are nice and sweet, but there are also plenty of bad apples who have been responsible for a lot of toxicity in this fandom.

Thank you for your ask!

[flightfoot]

I really liked your analysis of Marinette and lies, especially the little discussion about Lila not liking her because it reflects what she does and doesn't like and the debate about good /harmless lies vs bad/harmful lies.

Technically Lila isn't telling harmful lies at first, but she does it for her own benefit and with a manipulative tendency. When Marinette lies she doesn't intend to be manipulative (even if she is sometimes selfish).

What I wanted to ask you, because Marinette is a bad liar and I think there is genuinely a part of her that doesn't like lying, is that you think Marinette's lies are a defense mechanism/response to trauma?

I had noticed that she has a tendency to lie but I assumed that on and off the show it is downplayed because she is so bad at it that people just give her a pass. Reading your analysis and how most of the time she lies to avoid embarrassment, I can't help but think that this is related to the harassment she suffered.

Yes, no one likes to feel embarrassed. Yes, many of us would react to avoid/deflect embarrassment.But any mistake produces a panic reaction (no matter how small the error or how low the possibility of embarrassment) and the first instinct of most people is not to lie. It is a disproportionate reaction and even almost... Childish, I would say. Like a child who wants to avoid punishment.

But under Chloe's abuse, embarrassing situations always end in public humiliation, and for years Marinette had no strength to stand up, no ally, no refuge. Lying to get out of those situations, trying to pretend that what was happening was not what she was accused of and trying to avoid the embarrassment and therefore the subsequent public humiliation makes a lot of sense.

For anyone who's missing it, here's the post anon is referencing, where I went through all the episodes and specials and copied down every time Marinette lied unnecessarily (secret identity stuff doesn't count, for instance).

Eh... Marinette can be manipulative in her lies too, her lying in Ikari Gozen and Ephemeral seem worse than the manipulativeness of Lila simply lying about being friends with famous people to get others to like her.

Marinette's definitely lying as a defense mechanism, I noticed some "panic-lies" where she'll lie even when there's no reason for it, seemingly just out of panic. I could see that and her lying to avoid embarrassment developing due to the long-term bullying she suffered, yeah, though I think her other, more deliberate lies are just due to her being a Guile Hero who will use every tool in their arsenal to achieve their goals, even if it's morally questionable.

[thetimelordbatgirl]

(Miraculous Ladybug anon)

I just wanted to add a few things so you can understand even more why the fandom is going nuclear because of the finale:

Adrien didn't just ignore the bad things his father did. Because Gabriel's wish rewrote reality, Adrien doesn't even remember all the abuse he suffered at the hands of living under him.

The only person who does know is Marinette (who was allowed to figure out who Gabriel was instead of Adrien), but she was told by Gabriel to never tell Adrien what a massive scumbag he was in life and instead focus on the times he tried to be a good father. I'm not even being hyperbolic here. Gabriel literally told Marinette to tell Adrien to remember the times he did the bare minimum in trying to be a good father.

Even though Felix screwed over Ladybug by stealing all of the Miraculous except hers and Chat Noir's at the end of the last season, once Ladybug gets all the Miraculous back, he gets to be part of her superhero team, meaning he gets a forced redemption too.

And finally, when someone criticized Chat Noir's absence on Twitter, Thomas Astruc responded by citing the events of Chat Blanc, as if the actions of the characters in an alternate timeline was enough to justify keeping Adrien out of the conflict that was started by his own father (Link for proof: https://twitter.com/Thomas_Astruc/status/1675405463536402432).

Safe to say, absolutely nobody in the fandom is happy with the finale other than Thomas's biggest simps.

I'm...going to believe you on the Thomas Astruc thing after finding screenshots, cause guess which bitch is blocked by Thomas Astruc on twitter?

But also...yep...I am so happy to have dropped this show. Because holy shit.

This show really did have Gabriel abuse Adrien, both emotionally and physically, and literally either akumatize his son twice, showing he'll use his son even to get what he wants, or he'll endanger Adrien with akuma's literally out to hurt/kill him and in this finale alone, literally locks him in a isolation chamber, only to then turn around and have Adrien remember none of Gabriel's shit (the akumazations being the only thing that makes sense he doesn't remember cause both times those timelines were erased), just so Adrien can't have any reactions to the Hawkmoth shit and so that the show can have everyone praising Gabriel at the end.

And I just...again, I'm not going to get mad at Marinette here, she's fourteen for fucks sake and isn't the only one to know who Gabriel was by the end (you can't tell me Nathalie forgot, let alone Plagg and Tikki and Felix), but like, show really had Gabriel die doing what he does best: manipulating a child who has no idea how bad his treatment of Adrien could get (all Marinette knows is that Gabriel's controlling at best) and through the two, basically tried to reinforce Gabriel being a good dad somehow (cue coughing fit from that bullshit) while ignoring all the shit Gabriel has done.

And I am not even surprised at the Felix thing, just rolling my eyes as its honestly not as worse as the show trying to act like Gabriel's a good guy in reality. And funny Thomas Astruc brings up Chat Blanc as wasn't that the same episode that showed Gabriel as soon as he found out his son is the holder of the black cat miraculous, yeeting his child into the Eifel Tower and basically akumatizing said child after going at him emotionally and also tried to akumatize Marinette prior cause of him finding out his son is happily dating someone cause Gabriel never lets a chance to akumatize someone (mainly children) go? Funny episode for Thomas Astruc to bring up as an example of why Adrien can't fight Gabriel in the same episode that acts like he was a good person/dad.

[kisilinramblings]

Foreshadow anon here.

The whole Adrien in the room actually Félix is both make senses and not for me. Because while Félix characterization and action is pretty much random and seems to be all over the place, one thing stay the same : That he only care for himself and only "help" Adrien for his own interest and for his own benefit. So Felix trying to pretend to be Adrien in that scene seems to be impossible, unless Kagami play a role here? Unlike Félix, Kagami does care for Adrien and she meant it and considering Felix seems to be head over heels for her, it's not possible that he'd do it for Kagami. Especially for Kagami since she also get imprisoned but even then the chance seems to be small, but it still there in my opinion.

I'm also think the fairy tale isn't the only foreshadow for the finale. This just come to mind recently but what if, the whole scarf fiasco from s1 is a foreshadow for what Marinette would do in the final? Not my original theory since many people already said "the scarf must be mean something" but the possibility just clicked in my mind. Considering his classmate, Marinette included, think that Adrien is this very delicate damsel in distress princess, what if she decided to hide the fact that his father is Monarch just like how she hide the fact that his father doesn't give him a birthday gift? Basically hiding Gabriel bad deed for the sake of Adrien because she thinks Adrien can't handle the truth which actually checks out with what she did in ephemeral, where she hide the truth because she thinks Cat Noir won't cooperate. Of course all of this could only possible if Adrien in that room is really him and that make Cat Noir unable to participate in the final battle which is suck. I hope your theory about that Adrien being Felix is right because I don't think the final battle would be epic without Ladynoir. 😭

My apologies for the wait!

About Félix, yeah, and that is why I have a whole paragraph in my previous answer pointing that out that Félix only does things that goes for his self-interests and it is still a question mark of why he would do this.

For Kagami, although I do think she cares, I am not even sure she even knows Adrien had also a night escapade and is thus also imprisoned in a white room. We don't even know if both Adrien and Kagami can communicate with the outside. Or even each other for that matters.

If Félix isn't helping, then it is Adrien in the room and the only possibilities I foresee are either :

a) Chat Noir (or Plagg) uses Cataclysm to break free of this prison. But that is compromising his secret identity.

or b) if Ladybug sees them on the monitor screen at the Agreste mansion and open their room door at distance somehow. Problem is the bodyguard.

Anyway, all in all, I don't want to see Adrien stays behind. There is uncertainty because of his last scene in Representation where the nightmare of him killing those he loves most continues to haunt him. And with what happens in Representation, he saw his father can directly go after his friends and attack them in retaliation, thus why he does say he cannot disobey his father. He doesn't want that to happen again. So, him returning to London and stay put is his way of protecting them even thought it comes at his own expense. And I can understand that. But I don't want him to completely give up. I want him to find the courage to do in some way even if he is scared.

As for the scarf analogy, I don't think it was a fiasco? Marinette was just happy to see Adrien happy and leaves it at that because she didn't want to ruin the moment for him. Plus, she was unaware of the whole home situation then too. And besides, if memory serves, we don't see Adrien wearing the scarf again in the show. (Please correct me with the episode and scene where the scarf appears again because I fail to remember). The closest thing that was in continuity was the beret during Chat Blanc (imho).

Anyway, Adrien comes to the realization that he is the happiest when he is with Marinette on his own. He also realized that his father doesn't care about him and is imposing a future Adrien doesn't want. And that happened without the help of gifts, but by spending time with Marinette. By her making him laugh, making him feels safe to be intimate and vulnerable with her. By Adrien going to school and gaining experience outside his sheltered homelife.

Now, would Maribug tell him the truth about what she has learned? That is a whole different question. And yes, as Ladybug, there are instances during S4 most notably when she makes the conscious choice it is less risky to not involve Chat. But it was one factor that lead her to lose the Miraculous and Chat promised her they would recover the Miraculous together, one by one if the must. And while she has very personal reasons to fight Gabriel one by one, I don't want her to take that promise back. I hope she at least call Chat to let him know where she is going and ask him to join when he can. She at least has a cover such : I know who is Monarch and I need your help.

For Adrien, would she hides the truth? A part of me think yes, for a while, because it is not an easy discussion and Marinette tends to postponed those for a bunch of different reasons. Would it be a good thing for their couple to keep it a secret? Of course not. Just like it wasn't a good thing to keeps secrets from her partner in the previous season. It eventually has consequences. There is the possibility that as Ladybug she tells Adrien the truth, but as Marinette she acts like she doesn't know unless he talks to her about it.

Still, like Adrien chose not to reveal his identity as Chat Noir to his girlfriend, Marinette also would have a reason to not reveal she is Ladybug to her boyfriend.

Anyway, I am intrigued where this finale confrontation is heading and how it will be affecting them.

[immaturityofthomasastruc]

I'll be honest - I still think you're rather hard on Chat/Adrien (and lenient on Ladybug/Marinette). Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of things that he hasn't done right, a lot of times where he's messed up and he should be held to that. But I don't think it's fair to get mad at the fact that he didn't talk to Ladybug?

Should he have talked to her? Yes.

But if we're following the shows logic (I guess), Adrien is an abuse victim. He's neglected. Anytime he's tried to talk to his father, how he feels and what he thinks is always disregarded so I feel it makes sense that he doesn't usually tell people how he feels. Who's to say that he doesn't feel that way? Risk seemed to be the first time he told anyone how much he doesn't like or want to do modeling.

It doesn't really excuse it but I feel it explains his behaviour.

I dunno. Maybe I'm just projecting? I've had my thoughts and feelings disregarded plenty of times by my father. Even if I tell people how I feel about something, I always regret it later because I've just bothered them 😅

I dunno. Maybe this is a bad take.

Don’t worry, I don’t necessarily agree with your take on Adrien, but I understand what you mean.

While I’m not a victim of abuse, and therefore, can’t relate to Adrien like you do, the problem I have with the way said abuse is written is the show doesn’t really do a good job at showing how this affects Adrien. Yes, he does try to solve problems diplomatically (Chameleon, Ladybug), but we don’t see him struggle to stand up to Ladybug in towards the end of this season (Kuro Neko, Strikeback), because, let’s be honest here, it’s because the plot needs him to act like this.

I just want to make things clear that I am by no means trying to invalidate your experiences, anon. I just believe that the show should do a better job at showing how hard it is for Adrien to assert himself against people like his father or Ladybug. Well, that, and if the show really wanted to tell a story about emotional abuse, they really shouldn’t have made it so Adrien literally had no choice but to listen to Gabriel thanks to possibly being a Sentimonster under his control.

I just hope you can understand my take on this situation, anon.

[ilikekidsshows]

2part anon here, thanks for the great answer, I'm glad you could make sense of it in the end. Tikki is really interesting to me coz I don't get her at all, so I appreciate that you could shed some light here. Since you've got a bit of a reputation as the kwami guru, would you mind elaborating on the Fuu Wyazz dynamic a bit more, maybe even in conrast to our other guardian, Marinette? You touched on it briefly and it picked my interest.

Thanks! I'm glad you liked the essay.

I have said it earlier that the human/kwami pairs in Miraculous are designed to be compatible. The human in the equation has to be actively making all the worst decisions for it to go south. Because of this, out of all the kwami in the Miracle Box under Fu's care, Wayzz is the most suited for him. Naturally, as Marinette's partner is Tikki, the same doesn't hold true for Marinette and Wayzz, although Tikki and Wayzz share some similarities in their temperament and how they interact with their holders.

Fu has a more even temperament than Marinette, but he is also more paranoid. To match and balance these aspects, Wayzz is also calm but, in addition, he’s trusting. Wayzz is even implied to have some ability with intuition in 'Origins', when he can sense Nooroo's activation. Fu tries to stick to what he can remember of the Guardians' rules to the best of his ability, because those are all he has to land back on, while Wayzz is more willing to bend the rules and be deceptive for the sake of the greater good, as we see in 'Sandboy'. Fu is afraid of rocking the boat in case the new status quo ends up worse, while Wayzz is willing to try something risky, like opening a telepathic link to a kwami who might be mentally connected to their enemy at that time, because he believes in the good that can result from it.

Basically, Fu is a pessimist while Wayzz is a cautious optimist. When Fu's trauma paralyzes him into inactivity, Wayzz urges him to act with different suggestions. When Fu's paranoia leads to him trying to solve a problem alone, Wayzz urges him to have more faith in the heroes he chose. Wayzz's function in his bond with Fu is to question things, since Fu's biggest character flaw is not questioning the instructions he was given in the past.

Meanwhile, Marinette has a very volatile temperament, so Tikki also isn't entirely even. Even so, Tikki's detachment from humanity is visible in how her emotions are more muted in comparison with Marinette. Marinette can panic, get in a tizzy and sink into despair and, while Tikki can fret and get huffy, she is not the type to expect the worst. Any situation, no matter how bad, has the potential to be worked out, to create something new. Tikki is the kwami of Creation, so it makes sense that she'd never think a situation is entirely hopeless, even when she doesn't know how to solve a problem. Meanwhile Marinette can feel hopeless, but is also very capable of coming up with solutions and turning losses into victories.

Basically, the main role Tikki serves to Marinette's thought processes is to be a more hopeful voice to combat Marinette's tendency to despair, while also not giving Marinette ready solutions so that Marinette can figure out how to proceed herself. Tikki's purpose is to get Marinette to act, because Marinette's own worst enemy is her hesitation. Tikki believes in Marinette, and Marinette needs that belief to bolster her own self confidence.

Neither Wayzz nor Tikki serve as their human partner's opposite, instead, they have similarities that make them capable of understanding their partner, while also having differences that are meant to shake up Fu's and Marinette's instincts. The best way to weigh the value in a certain course of action is to have someone voice a dissenting opinion. Even if Wayzz and Tikki aren't infallible, it's still important that the question of "what if?" gets brought up. That's the similarity between the kwami, although they go about it in different ways.

[my-miraculous-headcanons]

(1/2)separate people anon: No, I meant as a method for having LB&CN be ostensibly separate people (LB & CN can be in the same frame as Adrien & Marinette), but in reality they are still Adrien & Marinette. Like, Marinette is wearing the earrings & feels the urge to never take them off, but no idea why & doesn't know she's LB at all because LB is created from within her soul upon putting on the earrings, but Marinette doesn't know that. Similarly with Adrien & CN. Maybe like an ultimate identity

(2/3)Maybe like an ultimate identity protection thing or whatever excuse. Does that make sense? (The memory blackout thing was meant like this for example: after the miraculous cure is cast neither she nor Adrien remember that they are the heroes who just fought the akuma & are confused, like “where am I? how did I get here? wasn’t I just in school? Huh? Why don’t I remember what happened the past half hour/hour/day” etc.)

(3/3) Also should mention I wasn’t talking about anything remotely split personality, but magic: literal creation of a new person from inside the soul of the miraculous wearer for the duration of… well, however long LB & CN are needed. (LB & CN would be literally the best version of Marinette and Adrien because created from within their soul.)

This clears things up a lot more, I had a whole response written for your first two asks but clearly I was wrong in what I thought you were talking about. (It was filled with a lot of questions too, haha.) Is this by any chance similar to Yukito (Julian) from Cardcaptor Sakura?

Your idea sounds a lot like outright possession, almost, because regardless of the fact that Ladybug and Chat Noir would have been created out of Adrien and Marinette’s souls, they’re still… taking over the original hosts’ bodies. So not split personality, but bodily possession without the knowledge of either parties. (Because I sincerely doubt that if Ladybug and Chat Noir knew, they’d be just… fine with it. Imagine thinking you’re your own person and then finding out that you’d just been periodically taking over the body of someone else in order to exist. That’s insane.)

It’s still really interesting though. The problem with this is how I would sort of mix it into the Separate People AU in regards to shipping, because your idea implies that Ladybug and Chat Noir are only called upon when needed, not when they just want to exist. (I had originally made the Separate People AU for dumb love square shipping drama and shenanigans, after all.) Safe to say, Marichat and Ladrien definitely wouldn’t happen if Chat Noir and Ladybug only existed during akuma attacks.

However, it’d be even more interesting if Chat Noir and Ladybug were aware of their own identities, and were technically awake even when they were not in control of the body. That way, for one, they know when there’s an akuma attack and when they’re needed. And secondly, they could technically take over whenever they wanted, but simply didn’t out of respect. Because, clearly, Adrien and Marinette have absolutely no idea that they have another consciousness in their bodies. 

Maybe Ladybug and Chat Noir come out at night the moment Adrien and Marinette are asleep? (And hopefully Adrien and Marinette are still technically asleep as Ladybug and Chat Noir uses their bodies, so that the two can actually feel… well rested in the morning.)

I mean, if Marinette falls asleep before Adrien, Ladrien interactions could happen, and if Adrien fell asleep before Marinette, Marichat interactions could happen. (And I imagine there’s a lot of Adrienette and Ladynior interactions by itself, too.)

It would be especially strange in the Marichat and Ladrien ships, though, because Adrien and Marinette have NEVER been conscious during an akuma attack, and probably have never had the opportunity of actually... seeing the heroes until those moments in the middle of the night. It’d be very, very strange. 

[theerurishipper]

I remember people said the scene in Transmission, where Ladynoir renounce their Miraculous and "seemingly" not thinking about each other are mean to be a plot hole, not character inconsistency.

Bt for me, if the character NOT even make a slight uncomfort gesture/expression when they see Scarabella and Black Minette out there instead of their team mate, then it's not a plot hole, it's character inconsistency.

"Plot hole" excuse only work if Adrinette make any comment/looks surprised/make any reaction upon seeing the new duo but the aired time won't let the show do more than that. But the show doesn't let them react negatively which resulting people interpret it as "Yeah I don't care about my team mate, I already got my gf/bf anyway" which is not plot hole at all.

It's 100% character inconsistency. Plot holes are when the plot is wonky, and some logic doesn't logic. When a character acts OOC, it is character inconsistency. Adrien and Marinette have both become wildly OOC since the second Adrienette became canon on this show. They don't care about superheroing anymore, they don't care about each other as Ladybug and Chat Noir anymore. Outside of like, one line about "I hope Ladybug/Chat Noir are okay" (which is quickly overshadowed by some Adrienette, cause we sure do need more of that when we're talking about the late Ladynoir), they just don't give a fuck.

Actually, this isn't even character inconsistency anymore, this is a whole character overhaul a la whatever happened to Felix Fathom. Cause Adrienette only works if you change significant aspects of their characters. What about Chat Noir meaning freedom and a means of escape for Adrien, what about Ladybug being the narrative opposite of his abusive father who gives him unconditional love and acceptance? Fuck that, what he really needs is to start centering his identity around his classmate (with whom he isn't even that close because she thinks he's perfect) and defining himself based on her needs. And what of Chat Noir being the only one who can understand Marinette's struggles? Chat Noir being her special partner whom she can always lean on? Nah, fuck that shit lmao, here's Marinette trying to tell Adrien something he already knows and Marinette trying to hold Adrien's hand even though she's done that before without a problem!

Anyway, like I was saying, they had to change their characters up so that Adrienette could make sense, because it sure wouldn't make sense if it became canon in the show that devoted the bulk of its development to Ladynoir, now would it? So that's why we get episodes like Determination, where Adrien is suddenly head over heels for Marinette out of fucking nowhere, right after the Jubilation dream sequence where they had those cabbage patch kids, and Ladybug initiated a kiss even though they realized this was a dream, and they were clearly having some complicated feelings about the whole thing at the end of the episode. Cause fuck Ladynoir, amirite? Like, why would we waste time on the relationship we spent 5 seasons developing when we could focus on some cookie cutter high school romance with retcons galore and multiple, I tell you, multiple scenes featuring Marinette suddenly having the inability to do things she's done before with no problem, and apparently, it's all Chloe's fault, like what a fucking shocker, who could have seen that coming.

And lets not get into the actual plot holes in Transmission too, cause those also exist? How does Adrien Agreste know and proudly state Scarabella's name when no civilian knows she exists? How does this not make Marinette question why he knows? Why does Marinette expect that someone else becoming Ladybug means she's free when she's still the Guardian? Make it make sense, please.

Anyway, that's all I got. I'm sorry for using your ask as a venting post, anon. I just rewatched Gamer today, and god, Adrienette are so cute and adorable in Season 1. Like, they actually have chemistry and fun interactions and it's the lucky charm debut episode! I will never forgive this show for taking that Adrienette away from me and replacing it with... whatever Season 5 coughed up.

Thank you for your ask!

[flightfoot]

Uhm I dont know if u saw it if not I dont want to spoil details.. so... whats your opinion on that whole Lila thing now in the trailer?

Cause OOF, toxic Marinette stans are getting more and more validated by the show now. I thought season 4 Ladybug getting to cherry pick Cat Noirs rights in their partnership fully on her terms alone while leaving him fully oblivious to the actual offenses was bad enough bc it validated Marinette stans in their thinking that Marinette focused morality is all thats important... but now THIS with Lila?

Man I hope season 5 is not going to sacrifice even MORE characters for Marinette focused black-and-white morality. Chloes humanity was also already thrown out of the window bc she is Marinettes bully and therefore unworthy of spmething resembling an happy ending and Ladybug was declared above the long lost guardian culture she is in posession of its most important object their lifes and culture was dedicated to... bc oh boy Su-Han is a man and yelled at her. That sure excuses Marinette being written to completely disregard the entire guardian culture, traditions and set rules in her own guardianship she had no idea in what shes doing (how could she?) while doing whatever she wants to the long lost cultures holy relic and its spellbook.

But what does that matter? he YELLED, the horror. Invalidate the whole celestial guardian of the Miraculous, he yelled and asked marinette to follow important rules so he can only be redeemed by bowing to her, begging for her forgivness and doing whatever she says. Yay. its not like Suhan always ended up giving into what she wanted in season 4 so maybe we could have had an ounce of a compromise in this? no? Oc not...

I miss the first two/three seasons so much. I once enjoyed Marinette ALOT as a main character but ever since season 4 everything that goes against Marinettes will is either dehumanized or even demonized by the show or drowned in respect-women-juice™ until it gives in...

I hope Kagami and the rest of the class are not going to get that treatment either (Kagami because shes Tomoes daughter and she might be used in s5 by her, Lila or whoever in a way that opposes Marinette, and the class.. well, LILA is in the resistance.. and GOSH I hope the show will let Alya know about Lila's actions real soon or else she's gonna get salted to all hells again

Man I miss how things were back in season 2...

...I'm confused. I'm guessing you're talking about the trailer where we saw Lila cutting Marinette out of various photos she's in? I don't get what this has to do with "validating" Marinette-centric morality or anything like that, I think everyone agreed that Lila hates Marinette, whether they like Marinette or not.

I don't think that Chloe not getting a redemption arc (not yet, anyway) has anything to do with Marinette-focused morality. While she might have slightly more of a focus on Marinette, she bullies everyone, not just her. Chloe not getting the Miraculous back has to do with her really not being that great of a person in general, not just because Marinette doesn't like her.

As for the whole deal with Su-Han - frankly, he IS a jerk. Yeah, sure, Marinette had the super important object that their culture and traditions center around and are dedicated towards... but that object is the Miracle Box. With the Miraculous in it. Which are sapient creatures with their own opinions on things who have decided that they really like Marinette and the way she does the job of Guardian. "Respecting someone else's culture" isn't really a thing when that culture involves mistreating sapient creatures who prefer to NOT be treated like that.

And also when there's currently a major threat against the city you live in. If the tradition endangers the ability to stop people from getting hurt, then stopping people from getting hurt overrides that tradition.

I don't particularly like Su-Han kow-towing to Marinette and begging for her forgiveness, but that's more because it makes him seem pointless as a character. What's the point of making him this big old asshole who stands in her way and yells at her, and then folds and begs for forgiveness at the slightest bit of pushback? Either make him a genuine obstacle that she has to struggle to overcome (and who changes his mind about Marinette gradually, after she's had to make a lot of effort, not just by yelling at him a little), or make him genuinely helpful early on, don't do this weird thing in the middle.

I don't think the show has dehumanized or demonized everyone who's gone against Marinette? Not now, not in season 4, and not before that, either. Some of Marinette's biggest fans have done that (anyone who's followed me for any amount of time knows of my virulent hatred for Saltinette and everything that comes with her), but the show itself? No, not really.

I think Kagami is safe, no matter what the show does with her. There are five characters who the Saltinette crowd consistently champion as great, who're almost always shown in a positive light in saltfics, who're usually part of Saltinette's posse: Marinette (naturally), Felix, Chloe, Luka, and Kagami. I doubt that anything canon does with Kagami is gonna change that group's mind about her, not after they've been using her this way for four years.

Alya... yeah I'm more afraid for Alya. If there's an excuse to demonize Alya, I assure you, it will be taken. I hope that Alya finds out that Lila is actively malicious soon as well, and that we get a Fox vs. Fox storyline. Alya deserves it, with how badly she's been treated by the saltdom in part because of Lila.